Scholarly discussion of the music of John Cage.

[David Bellows <>]

Hey Rod, thanks for your input here!

I'm definitely trying to be as accurate to Cage as I can and
especially so once he was using computers to assist the process. That
said, I'm not a programmer and am continually limited by my knowledge
and skill. I try to make up for this with providing options.

> She was under the impression that Cage just picked any words between the 
> two Mesoletters and used them as wing words. When I pointed out that this 
> was not the case, I believe that she went back to her software and updated 
> it

There are two points I'm confused on. Right now my program just starts
from the beginning of the source text, finds the first spine word,
generates the wing words for it (both sides), then finds the next
spine word, generates the wing words and so on till we've generated
enough poems.

As I keep researching this it appears that maybe Cage's software would
create a list of spine words first and then choose spine words
randomly from that list. Is this the case? My software is not set up
for that at all but it's possible I could put an ugly hack together
that would resemble this.

The other point is that once you have two spine words are the wing
words chosen randomly from all the valid words between them? Right now
my software chooses up to 11 words before and after each spine word
(meeting the mesostic rules) and then, depending on the option chosen,
randomly chooses from those words.

I think implementing a version that chooses words entirely randomly
between two spines could be made to work with my software but it will
also be a bit hackish.

> How that can be instituted using a programming language may be a difficult 
> existential question and might possibly be the essential reason for Cage’s 
> “hand” method.

Yeah, I guess we just have to trust the oracle-like pseudo-randomness
of our random number generators. My software isn't intended to be
perfectly like how Cage did it but, to borrow a phrase, a cheap
imitation of his methods.

Thanks,
Dave

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:12 AM Rod Stasick <> wrote:
>
> (2nd attempt):
>
> Happy New Year from an arrogant academic windbag!!
>
> (see here: http://www.euph0r1a.net/mesostomatic/)
>
> Yup, I remember that thread. BTW: the beginning of it is here:
>
> https://lists.virginia.edu/sympa/arc/silence/2013-04/msg00002.html
>
> and just press “ Thread  > “ to scroll thru it.
>
> I may take the time to go thru that thread again,
> but the mesostic discussions I remember here
> involved that thread and the “P.S.: Meso” one.
> I think that this may be the updated version of
> the “…Meso” one here:
>
> http://peregrine.awardspace.com/programs/ps/
>
> In a nutshell:
>
> The guy from the “mesostomatic” site closed his after I mentioned
> to him that he might want to read some more about Cage’s creation
> of mesostics and make the adjustments to his software.
> He became overly angry because, apparently, he had spent an
> enormous amount of time creating it. IIRC, it was in someway
> connected to a University degree he was striving for. My impression
> was that he discovered that he was doing it incorrectly and instead
> of making the changes, he got really angry with me and took it down.
>
> On the other hand, Nicki Hoffman, who created the "P.S.: Meso” site,
> did a great job, but she misunderstood Cage’s statement about picking
> wing words. She was under the impression that Cage just picked any
> words between the two Mesoletters and used them as wing words.
> When I pointed out that this was not the case, I believe that she went back
> to her software and updated it to the page that I offered  in the link above
> (it looks slightly different than the one that David showed in his initial 
> post).
> I haven’t used it since the upgrade, but she was very nice and understanding
> as opposed to the other person who had the tantrum. I’m hoping that it 
> works.
>
> I like Louis’ comment about “pruning” the wing words,
> because I seem to remember John saying something similar.
> The idea was to keep it to enough of a bare minimum to where it
> wouldn't lose its inner essence. How that can be instituted using a
> programming language may be a difficult existential question and
> might possibly be the essential reason for Cage’s “hand” method.
>
> I believe Andrew answers questions here when he has the chance,
> so we may hear from him.
>
> Looking forward to your version David.
>
> Rod
>
>
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