Scholarly discussion of the music of John Cage.

[Ben Judson <>]

When I read this passage, it seems to me that Cage is using the three terms interchangeably, while criticizing the way Boulez understands them or how he uses the techniques. Perhaps he is simply critiquing Boulez for not distinguishing appropriately between the three terms?

On Feb 12, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Ed Crooks wrote:

Hi Rod,

I certainly side with you on this one!

On the question of the term "aleatory", there is this from For the Birds, pp.180-1 Cage: "In fact, Boulez in turn threw himself into chance operations. But for him, chance served as a pretext for inventing the term ‘aleatory.’ I believe he established its present musical definition. Well, he used that word only to describe appropriate and correct chance operations, as opposed to those which seemed to him inappropriate or incorrect – mine! In fact, his chance operations fit into his compositions only as part of a drama. He very strictly distinguishes between determinate passages and ‘aleatory’ passages in the same composition. As a whole, it becomes a drama between opposites: determinate vs. indeterminate.”

best,

Ed

 

www.edwardcrooks.com

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From: Rod Stasick <>
To: Silence <>
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013, 14:26
Subject: [silence] Aleatoric • Indeterminacy • Chance

Hello Silencers,

Hope everyone is staying warm and not having

to deal with too much snow and cold.

I wanted to mention that I'm having an interesting...

ummmm...discussion with a guy online who has some 

misguided ideas about Cage's ideas and work:

Ideas like:

• Cage was known for his use of "mathematical equations

to create his music..." and then sites Joan's book "Musicage..."

as proof and tells me I need to read that... 

(Yeah, and Ravi Shankar was known for his dancing.)

• "Cage 'invented' aleatoric music" 

then when challenged says that he was the first to do so on record...

(out of curiosity, I wanted to check online which recording,

with year, was the first one released of John's music, but couldn't 

find André's list {the site is down} and couldn't figure out how to

find this bit of information using the "Complete Works" page

at johncage.org. I must be aging faster than I realize - ha!

Does anyone know what the first release actually was?

but anyway,

as a result of this, I'm discovering a kind of blurring

of the definitions of these three ideas:

• Aleatoric music

• Indeterminacy

• Chance

What I've long thought of as separate ideas

seems to be often thrown together (just recently?) 

as all the same - all three supposedly having the same meaning

which, to me, has clearly never been the case.

I know that John disliked the term "aleatoric"

but my aging mind needs refreshing as to where I've actually read this.

Yes, there's Meyer-Eppler's Darmstadt introduction

of the process...and Boulez took to popularizing it,

but it would be nice to visit's John's words.

Anyway, I'm wondering if any of you have your own

comments about these three ideas and their interrelation.

thanks,

Rod