Scholarly discussion of the music of John Cage.

[Vitor Rua <>]

dear rob,

if you see the first page of the score of 4`33``you will see this note of cage: "The title of this work is the total lenght in minutes and seconds of this performance"...then he explains the woodstock performance and also after the irwin performance... and only at the end he said that "the movements may last any lengths of time" ... so this is VERY DIFFERENT from saying that the piece can last ANY LENGTH OF TIME !!! NO !!! only THE PARTS CAN HAVE THE LENTGH OF TIME THE PERFORMER WANTS in order TO GIVE 4`33``ON THE TOTAL TIME OF THE PIECE...

this is NOT MY INTERPRETATION... is CAGE INTERPRETATION... but almost everybody thinks that when he write that the PARTS (and NOT THE PIECE) can last any lentgh of time... thinks the piece can last any length of time... its NOT TRUE!

and the true is on the beggining of the note write by cage: "The title of this work is the total lenght in minutes and seconds of this performance"...

Best regards

vitor rua

On 26 Oct 2011, at 00:11, Rob Haskins wrote:

0'00" doesn't last 0'00"--it lasts, like 4'33", for any length of time. I don't see it as a musical koan. The actions are amplified, so there are things to hear!  There's no paradox in that, at least for me.

Rob

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Richard Friedman <> wrote:

Something that has zero duration is a physical impossibility, unless perhaps we're talking about quantum effects. 

That said, I always considered 0'0" to be not a joke, but a conundrum, perhaps a musical koan, equivalent to the sound of one hand clapping. And very clever.

<R> 

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Vitor Rua <> wrote:

it´s your vision and i respect... but don´t agree...

if 0`00``is a "part 2" of 4`33``... why should we do interpretations about what is not there?...

what is there is that the piece is zero seconds of duration...

if he wants to say absence of time measure he can put (thats the correct notation for that) a "O" !!! thats the sign for "no measure" used by all the contemporary composers...

but its your opinion ... and its a valid opinion like others... like mine...

best regards

vitor rua

On 25 Oct 2011, at 22:03, matteo pittoni wrote:

As the partition talks about performing an action, and we try to recall the devotion to rational thought always showed by John Cage, I believe there is no reason to think that it should last zero seconds.

As for the reason of the title, maybe he used this to suggest the absence of a time measure : thus, a temporal indeterminacy.

In 4'33', there was a constraint on duration, but no constraint on any action ; maybe 0'00'' is meant to constrain the action (which must be disciplined) but not duration...

Best regards,

Matteo

On 25 October 2011 22:38, David Badagnani <> wrote:

Great discussion.  I can't think of any better use for this list!

If 0'00" is not the duration of the piece, why is it entitled that?  From all this discussion, I'm still not sure I understand that.  Is the lack of time in the title metaphorical?  And is there not at least a hint of humor?  First came the white paintings, then the silent piece of 4 minutes and 33 seconds' duration, then the very loud piece of no duration...it simply seems to be taking an idea to its logical extreme.

-- 

David Badagnani
Kent, Ohio

USA

---

From: Matt Rogalsky <>
To: Vitor Rua <>
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:09 PM
Subject: [silence] Re: Re: Re: 0'00" is a joke...

OK, you pulled me in to make one more reply.

On 2011-10-25, at 4:01 PM, Vitor Rua wrote:

> oh pleaseeeeeee... not even einstein will think that this composition must be performed... unless they perform on a warm whole or something...theres no DURATION !!!!!

The title of this piece is not its duration. The score instructions make that clear.

>> think of some of the more abstract Fluxus era compositions by La Monte Young and others, for instance, which really are not really performable in a concert hall sense).
>
> I have performed almost all the pieces

But not all.. because some cannot be performed in a concert-hall sense.
Such as: "This piece is little whirlpools in the middle of the ocean" (that's from memory, please forgive if I am paraphrasing)

OK, bye! That's the end of my contribution to this discussion!

in friendship,
Matt R

--
Richard Friedman
Oakland, California
http://rchrd.com/

--
Rob Haskins, Ph.D.
Associate Professor and
     Coordinator, Graduate Studies
Department of Music, College of Liberal Arts
University of New Hampshire
M-105, Paul Creative Arts Center
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Durham, NH 03824
603-862-3987 (office)
603-862-3155 (fax)
<http://unh.edu/music/>
<http://robhaskins.net>
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