Scholarly discussion of the music of John Cage.

[David Patterson <>]

Hi all.

For me, 0'00" (a.k.a. 4'33" no. 2) takes a kind of 4'33"-if-you-have-to-be-led-by-the-nose approach. If the central point of 4'33" is the appreciation of ambient sound in the moment, as it were, 0'00" is the same, only amplifying such sounds so that they can't be ignored. The title, too, also reinforces the very point of listening in the moment by naming it not after some future point or overall duration, but the immediate, occurring present: i.e., 0'00" = right now!

Also, I think there's a difference between a piece being a "joke," and a piece that uses humor, or a piece that is wry, or a piece that is witty, etc. There are just lots of nuances, and I myself would really have to think about 0'00" in a completely different way before it would approach "joke" status.

Interesting discussion, in any event!

All best,

--David P.

--- On Tue, 10/25/11, Rob Haskins <> wrote:

From: Rob Haskins <>
Subject: [silence] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 0'00" is a joke...
To: "Richard Friedman" <>
Cc:
Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:11 PM

0'00" doesn't last 0'00"--it lasts, like 4'33", for any length of time. I don't see it as a musical koan. The actions are amplified, so there are things to hear!  There's no paradox in that, at least for me.

Rob

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Richard Friedman <> wrote:

Something that has zero duration is a physical impossibility, unless perhaps we're talking about quantum effects. 

That said, I always considered 0'0" to be not a joke, but a conundrum, perhaps a musical koan, equivalent to the sound of one hand clapping. And very clever.

<R> 

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Vitor Rua <> wrote:

it´s your vision and i respect... but don´t agree...

if 0`00``is a "part 2" of 4`33``... why should we do interpretations about what is not there?...

what is there is that the piece is zero seconds of duration...

if he wants to say absence of time measure he can put (thats the correct notation for that) a "O" !!! thats the sign for "no measure" used by all the contemporary composers...

but its your opinion ... and its a valid opinion like others... like mine...

best regards

vitor rua

On 25 Oct 2011, at 22:03, matteo pittoni wrote:

As the partition talks about performing an action, and we try to recall the devotion to rational thought always showed by John Cage, I believe there is no reason to think that it should last zero seconds.

As for the reason of the title, maybe he used this to suggest the absence of a time measure : thus, a temporal indeterminacy.

In 4'33', there was a constraint on duration, but no constraint on any action ; maybe 0'00'' is meant to constrain the action (which must be disciplined) but not duration...

Best regards,

Matteo

On 25 October 2011 22:38, David Badagnani <> wrote:

Great discussion.  I can't think of any better use for this list!

If 0'00" is not the duration of the piece, why is it entitled that?  From all this discussion, I'm still not sure I understand that.  Is the lack of time in the title metaphorical?  And is there not at least a hint of humor?  First came the white paintings, then the silent piece of 4 minutes and 33 seconds' duration, then the very loud piece of no duration...it simply seems to be taking an idea to its logical extreme.

-- 

David Badagnani
Kent, Ohio

USA

---

From: Matt Rogalsky <>
To: Vitor Rua <>
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:09 PM
Subject: [silence] Re: Re: Re: 0'00" is a joke...

OK, you pulled me in to make one more reply.

On 2011-10-25, at 4:01 PM, Vitor Rua wrote:

> oh pleaseeeeeee... not even einstein will think that this composition must be performed... unless they perform on a warm whole or something...theres no DURATION !!!!!

The title of this piece is not its duration. The score instructions make that clear.

>> think of some of the more abstract Fluxus era compositions by La Monte Young and others, for instance, which really are not really performable in a concert hall sense).
>
> I have performed almost all the pieces

But not all.. because some cannot be performed in a concert-hall sense.
Such as: "This piece is little whirlpools in the middle of the ocean" (that's from memory, please forgive if I am paraphrasing)

OK, bye! That's the end of my contribution to this discussion!

in friendship,
Matt R

--
Richard Friedman
Oakland, California
http://rchrd.com/

--
Rob Haskins, Ph.D.
Associate Professor and
     Coordinator, Graduate Studies
Department of Music, College of Liberal Arts
University of New Hampshire
M-105, Paul Creative Arts Center
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Durham, NH 03824
603-862-3987 (office)
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<http://unh.edu/music/>
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