Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.

["Wantland, Ross A" <>]

Though I guess at the same time it's about defining the act as rape - both 
for survivors and perpetrators (who both vastly underreport experiences that 
meet the legal definition of rape as rape). In my work with men, we do have 
to help them know what it is that they've done or what it looks like, because 
many of them don't name their actions as sexually violent until that moment. 
I think that deep down inside, they know something was not okay about what 
they did, but they don't name it rape.

Especially in a society that encourages a sexually violent hegemonic 
sexuality (for men to enact and for women to accept/receive), we have to be 
vigilant to help everyone understand and recognize sexual violence when it 
happens.

Thanks for a great discussion!
Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: 

 
[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Juliette Grimmett
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:40 AM
To: 
;
 Sean Chavez; Sarah Holdwick
Subject: RE: online sexual assault program

yes yes yes - the piece about sexual violence being an act that perps don't 
realize they are doing makes me crazy - that is why I don't like the Sex 
Signals program.  This should not at all be about telling them that this is 
what it is, so now they won't do it!  The men's part should be about being an 
empowered bystander and teaching them skills in which to do this.  I have 
talked to nformd about this and in fact they have taken some of my bystander 
activities and are considering ways to include that with the program.  The 
verbal judo stuff is funky to me as well.  Even in a best case scenario in 
which somehow she does get away from him, once again the responsibility is 
put on the survivor AND this is not primary prevention - he will go find 
someone else to rape - does not address any cultural change at all - to me it 
is exactly like the self-defense approach, which I do not agree with.

this is a great discussion, thank you to all...

"It's so liberating and important for men to understand that they can 
actually be friendly to women instead of playing some gender-specific role, 
and that women are in most ways the same as they are. I think that lots of 
women already know that, but not so many guys do."  -my dad
8/3/07

Juliette Grimmett, MPH
Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
NC State University
Women's Center
3120 Talley Student Center
Campus BOX 7306
Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
Office: (919) 513-3232
24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
Fax: (919) 515-1066
email: 

website: http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center



>>> "Sarah Holdwick" 
>>> <>
>>>  12/12/2007
10:33 AM >>>
As Juliette mentioned, there is no one program that will perfectly address 
every aspect of SA in a way that will reach everyone.  There is a lot of 
useful information included in the nformd program, but I agree with Sean 
about the "Verbal Judo" section.  It sends a lot of mixed messages and 
ultimately holds women responsible for preventing the assault.  I also 
question the soundness of telling women to "crap your pants" because "you 
will be less attractive to him" as a realistic defense tactic against sexual 
assault.  Are they kidding?  For one, I do not know of too many women who, 
given the context of acquaintance or intimate partner sexual assault, would 
consider that a reasonable option.  Secondly, SA has nothing to do with 
attractiveness.  Lastly, I flat out laughed when the female student stated 
she had HIV and the male student responded with "so do I."  I get the point- 
say whatever you think will work and get the hell out of there- but think the 
method in which this message was relayed is somewhat crude, irresponsible, 
and even mocking.

Underneath the dialogue is the idea that many (most?) men who commit sexual 
assault in the college context do not know they are perpetrators and that 
they do it by accident.  While I think the program does a fairly decent job 
of explaining certain rape myths, I am very uncomfortable with this idea 
partly because it provides a loophole for assailants to avoid responsibility 
for their actions and also because it minimizes the impact of sexual assault 
on the victim as 'he didn't really mean it.'  This is something that has 
previously come up on the listserv, so I digress, but this reminds me of a 
journal article written by Beth Quinn and published in Gender and Society 
(www.gas.sagepub.com) entitled "Sexual Harassment and Masculinity: The Power 
and Meaning of 'Girl Watching.'"  The article suggests that masculinity must 
constantly be proven and performed, often at the expense of women through 
activities such as sexual harassment.  Men either directly or indirectly 
understand the objectifying nature of sexual harassment but essentially 
choose to refuse to empathize with the hurt a woman may feel because of 
harassment they perpetrate.  The issue is not that men don't get it but that 
most CHOOSE not to get it for fear of identifying with women's life 
experiences.

Thoughts?


Sarah Holdwick
Sexual Assault Advocate & Prevention Educator Underground Railroad, Inc.
(989) 755-0413 ext. 223

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-----Original Message-----
From: 

[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Sean Chavez
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:40 PM
To: Linder, Chris; 

Subject: RE: online sexual assault program

I also have a concern about the "Verbal Judo" and the goal of this is to 
"escape" out of a situation without any "form of physical or verbal 
resistance." Being from a resistance based state I don't feel that is the 
best advice to give women.
Any thoughts?

Sean Chavez
Program Specialist
Violence Prevention Programs
University of Idaho

208-885-2095


-----Original Message-----
From: 

[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Linder,Chris
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 9:30 AM
To: Juliette Grimmett; Katherine G Rose-Mockry; 
;
 Candace Daniels
Subject: RE: online sexual assault program

Hi All,

I have some significant concerns around the material included in this online 
sexual assault program. While I recognize that it clearly works for some 
campuses with limited staff and resources, I think it is important to 
recognize that this program is at best heterosexist and at worst homophobic. 
The use of male on male rape to evoke empathy in college men has been 
controversial for some time, and this program uses that perspective. I think 
the homophobic message inherent in this type of "empathy" causes far more 
damage than good. In addition, the video perpetuates many essentializing 
messages around gender that further alienates transgender and gender-queer 
students. We have done a disservice to the GLB and Transgender community for 
far too long and I think that the use of heterosexist material continues 
this. I'm not sure how to counter this when doing these kinds of generic 
programs that might be better than not doing anything, but I think it needs 
to at least be acknowledg  ed.

In addition to the lack of messages around GLB and T issues, it also does not 
address other marginalized populations - issues around sexual assault are 
different in communities of color and the disabled community than they are in 
the dominant culture, and this program does not address these factors either.

It is also expensive. If someone would give our office $6 for every incoming 
student to our campus, we could do a lot to reach incoming students in 
various ways - potentially multiple programs in 1st year classes.

Just some more food for thought...

Chris




Chris Linder
Director, Women's Programs & Studies
112  Student Services
Fort Collins, CO 80523-8200
Phone: (970) 491-6384
Fax: (970) 491-4922

wps.colostate.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: 

[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Juliette Grimmett
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 9:48 AM
To: Katherine G Rose-Mockry; 
;
 Candace Daniels
Subject: RE: online sexual assault program

Hi Kathy and everyone else-

your concerns are all very valid.  Ultimately, just like with any program, 
there is no perfect way to do this.  My thoughts are that this program is a 
great way to get something out to all of your students as long as you ALSO 
continue to do programming all over campus to show that there is a person 
behind this AND that they know there is someone they can speak with.  By 
itself with no follow-up, not a great idea.

I definitely heard that some of our students multi-tasked during the program 
and that can't be helped.  Even in a classroom, who knows which students are 
doing something else...what can be an advantage to this program is that for 
students that are very uncomfortable in groups or for those that may be 
triggered, this type of module allows students to do it on their own time, in 
phases, and in a place that they feel safe.


I looked at this program as being able to do SOMETHING that I can't.
I
alone cannot go and provide a baseline program for all 5000+ first-year 
students.  Some of them I will be able to reach in a classroom, RA training, 
housing workshop, etc., but it is not guaranteed.  This at least ensures the 
opportunity of reaching them all, and provides some baseline if I get to meet 
with them in person.  From the data we have been collecting, most students 
incoming students (upwards of 90%) have not received any SV programming 
before coming to campus, so this is better than nothing.

Also, while modules with acting can have a cheese factor, they are a million 
times better than the SexualAssault EDU program and have some diversity in 
their members.  I haven't gone through all of our evaluations/data, but 
overall it seems that at least our students did not find it too cheesy, but 
it is definitely a great idea to ask your students what they think.

Also, the price is what they call "the price of a movie ticket per person."  
So, somewhere around $7/8 per student is my guess.  You may be able to work 
out a figure that works for both of you if you decide to go ahead with the 
program.

All this said, it is a huge cost and something that I believe the 
University/College itself should pay for - not the Women's Centers and IPV 
centers.  Many are paying for the Alcohol EDU program, we need to get them on 
board with this as well.

juliette

"It's so liberating and important for men to understand that they can 
actually be friendly to women instead of playing some gender-specific role, 
and that women are in most ways the same as they are. I think that lots of 
women already know that, but not so many guys do."  -my dad
8/3/07

Juliette Grimmett, MPH
Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
NC State University
Women's Center
3120 Talley Student Center
Campus BOX 7306
Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
Office: (919) 513-3232
24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
Fax: (919) 515-1066
email: 

website: http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center



>>> "Rose-Mockry, Katherine G" 
>>> <>
>>>  12/11/2007 11:26
AM
>>>
Hi Candace and group members,

I received this information as well and visited the site to view the program. 
 From my perspective, it is a good idea but has some inherent
problems:

1.  Students can multi-task (or simply not attend to it) while watching.
The video producers have included a pre and post test to make it less likely 
students will stop watching it altogether, but I think smart students know 
how to answer these with limited involvement.

2.  It is easier to not connect emotionally when watching a video than in a 
presentation.  I've always felt that one of our most important tasks is 
connecting with students on an emotional level, which is where the real 
change comes about.

3.  The student actors come off as too "scripted" and the dialogue seems a 
bit insincere for me - students may not see it the way I do though.

I am going to get some of our students to take a look at it and give me 
feedback - would like to know what those of you who have used it think about 
it.  I also notice it's hard to get specific info about the cost of this 
program.

Kathy

Kathy Rose-Mockry
Program Director, Emily Taylor Women's Resource Center University of Kansas
(785) 864-3552

www.etwrc.ku.edu

The Student Involvement and Leadership Center exists because involvement 
enhances learning




-----Original Message-----
From: 

[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Daniels, Candace
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:00 AM
To: 

Subject: online sexual assault program


Hello all -



I just received a brochure in the mail about an online sexual assault 
prevention program called nformd.net (http://nformd.net ;<http://nformd.net/> 
). I have never heard of it before today, and wanted to know if anyone has 
any experience with it. If you have used it, how was it received on your 
campus? Do the students actually visit the site?



Thanks!!





Candace Daniels

Sexual Assault Response and Prevention Coordinator

St. Mary's College of Maryland

TEL: 240.895.4289





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Be empowered...

.....to STOP sexual violence...

.....to ACT as an intervening bystander...

.....to STAND as a man against sexual violence...

.....BE EMPOWERED.



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