Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.

["Klein, L.B." <>]

I really appreciate this conversation. When I think about work to engage men, I keep coming back to what a good friend and colleague of mine often asks any time someone brings that up: Engage men to do what? Or, what are the men doing after we've engaged them? I think the objectives that we're hoping to achieve would inform not only the identities of our facilitators but also what they're doing in order to achieve certain goals. I echo others' concerns about men doing work that is only informed by other men. I wonder if men tend to listen to men more when we begin introducing gender equity and leadership into the scope of prevention work that a man experiences on his journey. 

I also wonder sometimes what we mean by "engaging men," as so often I think that what is meant are men with social power and privilege, which seems to translate to white cis hetero men in fraternities or on athletic teams when I look at mainstream discourse.  It seems like we often mean men whose gender _expression_ and facilitation style do not much challenge what is a historically masculine gender _expression_. I struggle too with considering these men the same way we consider tailoring training to marginalized groups. As gender inequity is one of the root causes of violence, I feel that the approach to addressing a group that is of interest because they hold identities that benefit from existing power structures is to be treated differently than those groups who we seek out for programming because they experience oppression. If we are looking at engaging men who hold a lot of power and privilege, I'm not sure how we truly engage them without ensuring there is a time at which we hold them accountable and have them see value in learning from folks of all genders. 

I also wonder how we would test the impact of facilitators' gender without testing a curriculum itself or the quality of facilitation. My impression of many decisions about who facilitates curriculum have been more philosophical or part of the theoretical underpinning of the program, not something that was decided upon via testing of multiple iterations with facilitators of multiple genders. 

Those are just some initial thoughts based on what others have shared, and I'd be interested in continuing this conversation further. 

LB Klein, MSW, MPA

Ph.D. Student & Research Assistant

School of Social Work 

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

| Linkedin | @LB_Klein

Lead Trainer & Curriculum Development Specialist

Prevention Innovations Research Center

University of New Hampshire 

---

From: Staten, Abdul <>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 10:32:25 AM
To: 'Kaplan, Claire Naomi (cnk2r)'; Mahri Irvine; Katie Gentile
Cc: Megan Elizabeth Selheim; Seguin, Angela DiNunzio; Kate Rohdenburg; Ben Atherton Zeman; ; WRACL
Subject: RE: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

Hi everyone,

 

Great conversation all around! I too, have gone by the anecdotal lessons that facilitators of different/mixed backgrounds would be better able to reach audiences…that men can (but not always) reach other men…meet the audience where they are…etc.

 

The challenge with getting men specifically to educate other men is – Will we fall to highlighting and propping up men who are not as versed or experienced, just for the sake of having a man in front of a group of men? From my work with men, it’s not that men are better are reaching other men; it’s that some men are able to speak the language that will allow men to listen. But, women are also able to speak this language, and this is important! I’ve also found that in reaching men (that is, truly reaching men), smaller groups are far more impactful than larger groups. Sure a man may be better able to reach an auditorium full of men, for a moment in time…but if we really want to reach men, with smaller groups, the facilitator doesn’t have to be male.

 

I also connect this to our disciplines – medical, history, etc. – where the experts do not have to have the same experiences as the audiences in order to be effective. A teacher of African American history can be White; an athletic trainer may never have had a serious injury. So while on the one hand, getting someone who represents the audience is important…will we ever, truly be able to do that? That is, find professionals to match each of the audiences we are seeking to engage? Men, women, Black, athletes, survivor/victim, queer…you get the idea.

 

Suffice it to say, and I think someone already said it here – the facilitator’s style is probably just as important as anything! I push anyone who wants to get into the field to continue to hone their facilitation/presentation/public speaking skills. After all, a good orator is able to captivate the audience with the style…not their background.

 

Just a thought.

 

Abdul

 

 

Abdul Staten, MA

Prevention Coordinator

Columbia University

Sexual Violence Response & Rape Crisis/Anti-Violence Support Center

Lerner Hall, 700

Office: (212) 854-2136

Main: (212) 854-3500

 

From: Kaplan, Claire Naomi (cnk2r) [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 10:42 AM
To: Mahri Irvine; Katie Gentile
Cc: Megan Elizabeth Selheim; Seguin, Angela DiNunzio; Kate Rohdenburg; Ben Atherton Zeman; ; WRACL
Subject: Re: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

Hi all,

I’m totally with Mahri. My thinking has changed significantly since I started out as a hotline advocate and educator in 1983. We need to meet folks where they are, otherwise they won’t walk through the door. Initial exposure to men who are on board and engaged in this work gives young men subsequent permission to listen to coed or women-only presenters. It’s not only a question of defensiveness, it’s also about psychological development.  Late adolescents often just aren’t there (that can be true for adults as well, of course) and we need to find ways to guide them onto the correct path. We don’t have to lower our expectations, but be smarter with our strategies.

Peace,

Claire

 

————

Claire N Kaplan, PhD

She, her, hers

Program Director, Gender Violence and Social Change

List Manager, SAPC

Maxine Platzer Lynn Women’s Center

University of Virginia

Delivery address: Emmet House/McCormick Road

PO Box 800588

Charlottesville VA 22908-0588

434-982-2774

http://womenscenter.virginia.edu/gender-violence-and-social-change/

@clairskyk

 

From: Mahri Irvine <>
Date: Friday, July 14, 2017 at 10:26 AM
To: Katie Gentile <>
Cc: Megan Elizabeth Selheim <>, "Seguin, Angela DiNunzio" <>, Kate Rohdenburg <>, Ben Atherton-Zeman <>, "" <>, Women's Center Listserve <>
Subject: Re: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

Hi All,

Great conversations and points -- as I just mentioned to Kate, the research on this (see the attached article by Piccigallo et al) puts us in a bit of an ethical dilemma: if research shows that men will be more likely to listen to other men, and that men will care about SV if they know someone personally affected by it, does that mean we should cater to their man-centered, selfish personal-oriented perspectives? Or should we try to insist on doing things the "right way" by trying to get them to listen to women presenters in the first place? It's a difficult choice to make. I like Katie's approach of having facilitators of different genders. However, it's possible that in those situations, men will still not open up and be totally candid if there's a woman facilitator in the room. So maybe it comes down to what our goals are -- are we simply trying to get these guys to be comfortable enough to start talking about these topics in the first place? If so, we have to start where they're at, even if we fundamentally disagree with their views. Sometimes (OFTEN!) we have to compromise our ideal way of doing something and settle for a method that will get our participants moving along toward the goals we have for them. (Maybe a solution to this could be starting a group off with a male facilitator and then, after a few sessions/weeks/months, bringing in some women. Perhaps by that point, the group participants would be more open to listening to and learning from women.)

 

Over the years, I've gotten way more pragmatic than I used to be. Years ago, I would have probably insisted that we use women facilitators because we need to show men that women are great leaders, facilitators, thinkers, etc. Now I've gotten to the point of "good lord, I just want them to start having these conversations, and if that goal will be met best by having them listen to other men, then I'm okay with that approach." Culture change is created by baby steps.... tiny, teeny, frustrating baby steps.

(I'm also attaching some other articles that are relevant to this conversation.)

 

-Mahri

 

Mahri Irvine, PhD
Director of Campus Initiatives
Indiana Coalition to End Sexual Assault
9245 N. Meridian Street, Suite 227
Indianapolis, IN 46260
317-274-2501 (office)
317-872-1164 (fax)

@ICESA_Campuses

@Mahri_Irvine
@Indianacesa

 

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As a patriotic and concerned American, I pledge to respect, support, and protect Muslims, immigrants, women, people of color, survivors of sexual violence, people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, and all other vulnerable groups of people. I hope to live in a country in which my political leaders and my fellow citizens value and promote compassion, respect, kindness, logic, and critical thinking.

 

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Katie Gentile <> wrote:

I'm just going to echo Megan's email. For years I did trainings for my own college (students and employees) and did CUNY wide trainings, all with Joe Samalin (fabulous anti-violence specialist, CIS-gender, white, male). Mixed presenters (culture, genders, sexualities) not only model collaboration, but at their best, also model conflict negotiation. Joe is a big personality so part of our negotiations would be my asking him to step back and him listening and responding and reflecting on his masculine privilege in the moment in front of folks, while I would reflect on my own socialized engagement style. So it not only models power sharing, but also the conflicts and negotiations of such process-oriented relationships. None of this was planned, it just evolved as we did have the privilege of repetition.

 

Although I'm not in this area any more, it always seems we are under such pressure to continually adopt the best standards of practice on everything except these types of programs, where the minimal is considered good enough. It's very frustrating.

 

Katie Gentile, Ph.D.

Gender Studies Professor

Department of Interdisciplinary Studies

John Jay College of Criminal Justice, CUNY

524 W. 59th Street, Rm. 6.65.08NB

New York City, NY 10019

Tel. 212.237.8110

Co-Editor, Studies in Gender & Sexuality: http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/HSGS

The business of being made: The temporalities of reproductive technologies, in psychoanalysis and culture: 

https://www.routledge.com/posts/9016

http://www.routledgementalhealth.com/books/details/9780881634389/

 

 

---

From: Megan Elizabeth Selheim []
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 1:25 PM
To: Seguin, Angela DiNunzio; Kate Rohdenburg; Mahri Irvine; Ben Atherton Zeman
Cc: ; WRACL
Subject: RE: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

I have heard a lot, probably anecdotal, that co-education teams (one or more men-identified and one or more women-identified) presenters together have the most impact. It also makes sense to me that a co-ed model could both achieve the effect of men hearing from other men, as well as model valuing women’s perspectives and expertise.

 

That might be a little pie-in-the-sky, but I can hope. Also, generally, multiple presenters (I like 2) is really helpful in audience management and facilitating discussion, in my experience.

 

--

Megan Selheim

STOP Violence Program Coordinator

Dean of Students Office

Dept. 3135, 1000 E. University Ave., Laramie WY 82071-2000

106 Knight Hall

307-766-3296

www.uwyo.edu/stop

 

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From: Seguin, Angela DiNunzio [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 7:49 AM
To: Kate Rohdenburg <>; Mahri Irvine <>; Ben Atherton Zeman <>
Cc: ; WRACL <>
Subject: RE: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

I have great respect for Mahri, Ben, and the men on this thread, and the wisdom they bring.  And I have myself operated under this premise that it’s important for men to hear these messages from other men in order to normalize the messages and to REACH the men.  Kind of from the same perspective that African-American students need to see African-American representation among our faculty and staff if we want to increase the percentage of African-American students who opt to attend this school – it’s about representation.

 

AND Kate, what a great point!  *applauding*

 

Angela

 

 

From: Kate Rohdenburg []
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 8:59 AM
To: Mahri Irvine; Ben Atherton Zeman
Cc: ; WRACL
Subject: RE: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

I think the question here is:

Do we continue to put men in front of men hoping that they will be better received thereby practically undermining our objective to dismantle that bias?

 

Research validates sexism all of the time. So are our objectives short-term (that men respect the presenter more) or long-term (that men and women are respected in their own right and expertice)?

 

Kate Rohdenburg, Program Director

Program Center at 38 Bank Street, Lebanon NH

24-hour Crisis Line: 1-866-348-WISE

Office: (603)448-5922 * Fax: (603)448-2799

www.WISEuv.org * Facebook * Twitter

 

From: Mahri Irvine []
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:33 PM
To: Ben Atherton Zeman
Cc: ; WRACL
Subject: Re: scholarship on gender of facilitators with men?

 

I have some articles about this. I'm out of the office this week but will send them when I get back. Unfortunately, it turns out that men DO listen more to men than they do to women, based on at least one study I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Mahri

 

On Jul 11, 2017 7:44 AM, "benazeman" <> wrote:

I agree about the "truism," Susan!  It's not scholarship, but Kris Macomber and I wrote about this in 2014: http://xyonline.net/content/%E2%80%9Cengaging-men%E2%80%9D-work-it-men-only

 

"Women leaders of these movements have been engaging men for decades. They may not have called it that – it might have been simply 'volunteer coordination' or 'outreach...' if men are recruited into the movement by men, and work only with other men in “engaging men” work, they are often isolated from women’s experiences, insights, and leadership. This has fallout for all sorts of things, like men coopting and dominating shared space, men being seen as the experts and authority on sexual and domestic violence even if they lack experience and training, and even the likelihood that men earn more money than women for comparable work."

On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 11:05:46 AM UTC-4, Susan Marine wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

are any of you aware of anything published (op-ed or scholarship) about the dynamics of women-identified people presenting rape education to those who identify as men, or conversely, about the merits or drawbacks of men presenting to one another?

 

it feels to me as if we've taken it as a bit of a truism that young men should hear culture and behavior change messages from other young men, but has anyone actually written about this?

 

thanks in advance for any leads you may have or use in your work!

 

sincerely,

 

Susan

 

 

 

--

 

 

***

Susan Marine, Ph.D.

Associate Professor and Program Director, Higher Education Program

Merrimack College

225 Austin Hall

office: 978-837-5237 

cell: 617-347-4565

 

pronouns: she, her, hers

 

"The thing being made in a university is humanity...Underlying the idea of a university...is the idea that good work and good citizenship are the inevitable by-products of the making of a good-- that is, a fully developed -- human being."         -- Wendell Berry

Read (and download) some of my current work on advancing trans* students in higher education here, and on how college-age feminists engage in community-building here

 

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