Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.

[MIKE DOMITRZ <>]

This discussion is extremely important for all of us to continue on campuses 
throughout the year. Recently, I ran into a campus that was making much of 
its programming decisions based on the "Undetected Rapist" and thus missing a 
LARGE percentage of students who may also be committing sexual assaults 
(and/or being bystanders to sexual assaults).  Like others have said before, 
Lisak's research provides some great insight to a specific demographic.  At 
the same time, we have many more demographics on campuses being influenced 
and effected by the various components of sexual assault.

Your Fan,
Mike Domitrz
http://www.DateSafeProject.org
Toll-Free: 800-329-9390

***Catch the latest episode of DSP TV at http://www.DateSafeProject.org ;






On Jan 3, 2011, at 9:19 AM, Mahri Irvine wrote:

And we can’t forget about the men out there who know that there are men 
raping women in the next room, or planning rapes for the next party, but 
choose to not do or say anything because it’s “none of their business” or 
because they don’t know the women, or any number of excuses or validations. 
In my mind, those men are also perpetrators, just not necessarily primary 
perpetrators.
 
Mahri Irvine
Doctoral Student
American University
Department of Anthropology
 
“Critiques should be coupled with collective action. Just as reality without 
critique equals self-delusion, critique without action produces only nihilism 
and despair." -Randall McGuire (Archaeology as Political Action, 2008:39)
 
From: Juliette Grimmett 
[mailto:]
 
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2011 9:39 PM
To: 

Cc: 
;
 

Subject: Re: Intention, Sociopaths, and Rape Culture
 
Fully agree. I just thought I'd stick with the definition of rape in my 
discussion which is why I said 92+%

Juliette Grimmett
Assistant Director, Women's Center
Interpersonal Violence Services
NC State University 
(919) 515-2012

On Jan 2, 2011, at 9:22 PM, 

 wrote:

I think that gives men too much credit, Juliette.  Lisak's research showed a 
6.3% perpetration rate for rape, only.  Sexual assault was not assessed, nor 
were relationship violence, stalking or other acts of gender violence.  The 
four offense definitions were conservative (statute-based), and not based on 
campus offense definitions.  Broaden the question, and I think the offender 
base will broaden as well.  Also, account for the fact that Lisak only 
studied undetected rapists.  Those who were already held accountable in court 
or on campus were not studied.  That's a small number, sure, but also 
broadens the offender population. 
 
Regards,
Brett A. Sokolow
Brett A. Sokolow, J.D.
Attorney-At-Law

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NCHERM serves as counsel/advisor to 14 campuses, including:

Special Counsel to the Dean of Students, Dominican University (IL)
Special Counsel for Student Conduct Issues, Warren Wilson College
Special Advisor to the University of Texas, San Antonio
Special Counsel, Concordia University (TX)
Special Counsel, Northern Virginia Community College
Special Counsel, Southwestern Michigan College
Special Counsel, the Community College of Allegheny County
Special Advisor, Vassar College
Special Advisor, Henry Ford Community College
 
In a message dated 1/2/2011 9:05:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

 writes:
one last thought...

Despite the sexist, often misogynistic, rape culture we live in where men are 
entitled and women objectified, most men (on college campuses, about 92+%) do 
not commit rape.  The ones who do choose to do so - raping is a choice 
someone makes. 
 
peace
 
Juliette Grimmett
Assistant Director, NC State University Women's Center
Interpersonal Violence Services
3120 Talley Student Center
Raleigh, NC 27695
919-515-2012
 
Want to learn more about being a peer educator?
www.ncsu.edu/themovement
P Consider the environment before printing this email or the attachment.
 
>>> "Juliette Grimmett" 
>>> <>
>>>  1/2/2011 4:03 PM >>>
Thank you for your response Abby - you said exactly what I have been
thinking - there is still a small number of men who do it, therefore
there is something else going on here- we can't just say poor men who
are victims of a rape culture.  Also, I fully agree that these men know
what they are doing - this is why they call, text, email, facebook, etc.
a couple days after, acting completely normal, or sometimes apologizing
(for their own sake-to make the survivor think they are remorseful and
therefore not report), all to continue being manipulative and make it
even harder for these women to report.  Even law enforcement knows this
which is why pre-text phone calls are one of their investigative tactics
in non-stranger rape cases. We all know what is right and wrong - rape
is NOT gray - if someone is crying, passed out, saying no, totally
still, pushing someone away - everyone one of us knows this is someone
not consenting. It's just that some choose not to care.

peace

Juliette Grimmett
Assistant Director, NC State University Women's Center
Interpersonal Violence Services
3120 Talley Student Center
Raleigh, NC 27695
919-515-2012

Want to learn more about being a peer educator?
www.ncsu.edu/themovement 
PConsider the environment before printing this email or the attachment.



>>> "Abby Tassel" 
>>> <>
>>>  12/29/2010
9:49 AM >>>
Im now wanting to challenge a little as well!

While we live in a rape culture, research has shown us that only a
small percentage of men rape (although a much larger percentage commit
other sexually-violent crimes).  Thus, there is something going on with
these men that allows them to violate at this level.  I am not saying
the construct of a diagnosis would be appropriate, just that when we
talk about rape as mistaken hooking up, we are not recognizing the
violent nature of the act.  Having heard hundreds if not thousands of
accounts from victims/survivors, it has become clear that these men know
they are hurting someone else when they rape.  So, yes, our culture
supports predatory behavior, objectifying, trying to hook up, but
for most men, when women freeze, scream, cry, or otherwise indicate lack
of consent, they stop.  For the men who are not going to stop, the
culture provides a camouflage for their behavior.  So Frank and
other rapists think that what they are doing is normal.  Its not.   I
think we need to be careful to not sanitize the violence along with
Frank.



Peace,

Abby Tassel

Assistant Director





From: 

 
[mailto:]
 
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:32 PM
To: 

 
Subject: Intention, Sociopaths, and Rape Culture



I wanted to comment and challenge us on a couple of the assumption that
have been made in the responses to these questions about two tier
policies. These assumptions are that very few perpetrators are
unintentional and that most rapists are sociopaths. Lisak's research is
often pointed to validate this perspective.



I think Lisak's research is very well done and very helpful, but his
findings are often misunderstood out to validate some of our own
assumptions: to help us villainize perpetrators who we are
understandably angry at and hurt by and so that we don't have to
collectively take responsibility. Lisak uses the term "serial rapists"
to indicate perpetrators that repeatedly engage in the behavior. I know
many of us connect the terms "serial rapists" with "serial killers" -
who I would agree are often (probably always) sociopaths. But just
because one does something bad repeatedly doesn't mean one knows what he
is doing is bad and doesn't care (sociopath). It could also mean that he
has been taught by the culture that has surrounded him that what he is
doing is not bad, that it is normal, and that it is expected of him. 



We live in a rape culture that mis-educates us about what is sex and
what is rape throughout our lives. Extreme examples of the rape culture
are often shared on this list with calls for activism to confront them.
But we often become oblivious to the more subtle aspects of rape culture
that surround us everyday - even those of us who do this work everyday.
The reason we don't see the rape culture is not because it is not there,
but because it is everywhere. The rape culture encourages, condones, and
teaches men to rape women, only it doesn't call it that. It calls it
hooking up, getting laid, and having sex. As a result of this rape
culture men in particular are taught that the way you hook-up and have
sex includes pressure, coercion, using alcohol to ply invalid consent,
etc. Only we don't call it that. We call it "having game," "being a
sweet talker," "knowing how to butter her up," or "finding a cheap
date." Pardon the heterosexist examples - but heterosexism and
homophobia are also a part of the rape culture. Most men who have
engaged in behavior that meets the legal definition of rape and the
definition of rape in college policies don't define what they have done
as rape (84% according to Koss). I would think that makes them rapists
but perhaps rapists who didn't intend to hurt, violate, dominate,
coerce, or control their victims - although I am sure their lack of
intent to do so does much to change that the victims of their
perpetration feel exactly that. Nor should it.



Now, let me be clear, this does not excuse, condone, or mitigate the
perpetrators responsibility in anyway shape or form. This is why I don't
think separating intention with unintentional in terms of policy or
sanctioning should be done. I would argue instead this implicates the
rest of us, who contribute to the rape culture ourselves despite our
best of intentions. 



If we are going to be effective in preventing sexual assaults, we have
to really understand who the perpetrators are (as hard as that might be
- especially for those who do this work who are survivors) so that we
can be most effective in reaching them. If we hold sessions telling
college men that rape is bad - it is a tremendous waste of our time and
theirs. The sociopaths (who I would argue are limited but clearly
dangerous) aren't going to care. And the nice, well-meaning,
well-intentioned rapist (who I would argue data suggest are the vast
majority) will agree with you wholeheartedly and then continue hooking
up the way they have been taught their whole lives and engaging in
behavior that does indeed meet legal and campus definitions of rape. In
fact, they may perpetrate repeatedly (becoming a serial rapist) not
because they are sociopaths but because they are doing what they have
been taught is expected of them. The problem is with how we have been
taught to hook up our whole lives. 



This is why we must challenge the rape culture by clearly defining
consent, clearly defining informed consent, and beginning to unpack the
ways the rape culture has and continues to mis-educates us so that there
are fewer perpetrators and so that we can begin to challenge, confront,
and dismantle the rape culture that continues to mis-educate others.



--Keith E. Edwards, PhD

www.menendingrape.org 

www.keithedwards.us