Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.

["Thompson, Stephen M." <>]

Hello

I am sorry to be responding to this so late.  I have been traveling and only 
now saw the comments.  We have a program on DVD that has been studied on two 
separate occasions with several hundred respondents each time.  Each time 
significant change occurred relating to rape myth acceptance and bystander 
role. We will have the longitudinal data soon. The "No Zebras..." program  
addresses issues related to sexual aggression on a college campus.  Each 
vignette is one that is taken from many actual situations I have dealt with 
at Central Michigan University as well as other universities.  The focus is 
on the bystander mentality, that is the zebra reference.  You can look at the 
SAPA site below to see excerpts.  

Steve

Stephen M. Thompson
Sexual Aggression Services Coordinator
Central Michigan University
SAC 195
Mt. Pleasant, MI. 48859
Phone: 989-774-6677
Web:  www.stephenmthompson.com
Web:  www.sapa.cmich.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: 

 
[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of 

Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 4:24 PM
To: 

Subject: SAPC Digest, Vol 1023, Issue 3

Send SAPC mailing list submissions to
        


To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        


You can reach the person managing the list at
        


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of SAPC digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Looking for speaker team (Tom Schiff)
   2. Re: Looking for speaker team (Amanda Childress)
   3. RE: Looking for speaker team (Chad Sniffen)
   4. Re: Looking for speaker team (Juliette Grimmett)
   5. Re: Looking for speaker team (Tom Schiff)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:14:30 -0400
From: "Tom Schiff" 
<>
Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
To: 
<>
Message-ID: 
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

My experience of it was that it wasn't overt enough. The students with whom 
I spoke used the word manipulated. And condescension. And again I agree with 
Juliette, they seemed to focus on mis-communication, and thus could be 
perceived has supporting victim blaming.

Another piece that Juliette brought up which I find interesting is about 
behavior change. Has this program, or other similar programs, done any 
evaluation of impact (not whether folks were entertained)?

Sorry if I sound cynical. Not my best day today. However, I will add that 
perhaps this program could be very effective if framed well in the context 
of lots of other ongoing work.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chad Sniffen" 
<>
To: 
<>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: Looking for speaker team


> Tom, could you say a little bit more about what you found to be
> manipulative about it?
>
> Thanks,
> Chad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> 
> [mailto:]
>  On Behalf Of Tom Schiff
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:42 AM
> To: 
> 
> Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
>
> I saw this production a few years ago, and unless it has changed, I
> would agree with Juliette. I found it to be manipulative. Isn't that
> something we are working against?
>
> Perhaps Jackson, etc. have women with whom they work and with whom you
> could con-contract. MVP out of Northeastern typically has female / male
> teams working together.
>
> Tom Schiff, Ed.D.
> Health Education
> University Health Services
> 150 Infirmary Way
> University of Massachusetts
> Amherst, MA 01003
> _______________________________________________
> SAPC mailing list
> 
> https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
> 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:51:04 -0400
From: Amanda Childress 
<>
Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
To: Tom Schiff 
<>
Cc: 

Message-ID: 
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

We may have to consider the laws by state and consider what we're looking for 
in a presentation. In Ohio, are sexual assault continuum looks at sexual 
battery and rape very differently and our campus has more of a sexual battery 
problem than rape, according to our legal definitions.

Sexual Battery: as 'COERCING another person into any type of intercourse that 
the person does not want OR having intercourse when the person's ability to 
consent is impaired by alcohol or other intoxicants.' 

Rape: 'using force or the threat of force to have intercourse OR sustantially 
impairing another's judgement with a controlled substance to have intercourse.

On most college campuses you're looking at SA's that involve coercion and 
alcohol, not always force or the threat of force. The Sex Signals program may 
not do a very good job if you're trying to address a campus culture of forced 
RAPE. Because they don't hit on the force/threat of force or drugged 
assaults. 
Their program looks more at the coercion and miscommunication that men and 
women tend to do by assuming one thing and acting on it instead of checking 
to 
get consent or verbalizing your wants. Even though it is still the one who 
ACTS that is at fault, usually being the male. Most likely they need a better 
disclaimer or introduction to address this in the Sex Signals program, but 
their program tends to hit the perpretrators that "DON'T think that what 
they're doing is sexual assault." The average Joes that were/are socialized 
to 
think "she's playing hard to get, so I should keep persuing" or the average 
Janes who think "I don't really like what he's doing, but it's not nice to 
tell him that." Their program looks at risk reduction as to how each person, 
male or female can reduce their risk of people getting in these situations, 
where one person thinks it's consensual and the other feels violated. 

Hope that helps. 

Amanda Childress




Quoting Tom Schiff 
<>:

> My experience of it was that it wasn't overt enough. The students
> with whom 
> I spoke used the word manipulated. And condescension. And again I
> agree with 
> Juliette, they seemed to focus on mis-communication, and thus could
> be 
> perceived has supporting victim blaming.
> 
> Another piece that Juliette brought up which I find interesting is
> about 
> behavior change. Has this program, or other similar programs, done
> any 
> evaluation of impact (not whether folks were entertained)?
> 
> Sorry if I sound cynical. Not my best day today. However, I will add
> that 
> perhaps this program could be very effective if framed well in the
> context 
> of lots of other ongoing work.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chad Sniffen" 
> <>
> To: 
> <>
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Looking for speaker team
> 
> 
> > Tom, could you say a little bit more about what you found to be
> > manipulative about it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 
> > 
> > [mailto:]
> >  On Behalf Of Tom
> Schiff
> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:42 AM
> > To: 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
> >
> > I saw this production a few years ago, and unless it has changed,
> I
> > would agree with Juliette. I found it to be manipulative. Isn't
> that
> > something we are working against?
> >
> > Perhaps Jackson, etc. have women with whom they work and with whom
> you
> > could con-contract. MVP out of Northeastern typically has female /
> male
> > teams working together.
> >
> > Tom Schiff, Ed.D.
> > Health Education
> > University Health Services
> > 150 Infirmary Way
> > University of Massachusetts
> > Amherst, MA 01003
> > _______________________________________________
> > SAPC mailing list
> > 
> > https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAPC mailing list
> 
> https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
> 



Amanda Childress
Assistant Director
Division of Student Affairs
Department of Health Promotion
*********************************
Ohio University
339 Baker University Center
1 Park Place
Athens, OH 45701
740.593.4742

www.ohio.edu/healthwell


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:56:13 -0700
From: "Chad Sniffen" 
<>
Subject: RE: Looking for speaker team
To: 
<>
Message-ID:
        
<>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Thank you for posting that response, Juliette. I think can see where you
are coming from on that. I also agree that they had a heterosexist bias,
though I thought that they mitigated that with acknowledgements
somewhat. So, I saw the show at a DOJ campus grants training and
technical assistance institute I was at last year, and I also saw them
perform at Arizona State University several years ago with a student
audience (different performers each time). 

At the institute, a lot of people shared Juliette's opinion (that they
are minimizing intentionality and responsibility in sexual assault), and
a lot of people asked them about that in their post-performance debrief
at the DOJ institute. Their response was that they are not a complete
sexual assault education program. The focus of their presentation is to
teach healthy sexual communication strategies, not other types of
education about sexual violence, which is then the job of the host
program. The host program is probably already good at presenting an
audience with a negative, which is warnings and other information about
sexual violence. The goal of the performance is to present the audience
them with a positive... which is how to have a consensual sexual
interaction. That is something I think a lot of our prevention programs
miss.

We have done a good job of warning people about sexual violence  (which
I am very glad about), and now are doing a good job about teaching
people to be warned bystanders (which I am also very glad about), but I
think we also need messages about what people should do. I think it is
the job of a prevention program to do all of those things. Telling
people what they should expect not to happen is only half of a behavior.
Telling people both what should not to happen and what should happen
describes a positive behavior more fully. And, when that positive
behavior does NOT happen, it gives a survivor more tools to recognize
and name what has been done, and hopefully it provides more of a context
from which can some a social acknowledgement that what has been done is
wrong. And, in a bystander context, it helps those around the
perpetrator to identify his or her behavior as wrong as well.

So, that answer did not satisfy everyone at the institute as I recall,
and it may not be satisfying in general, but it is why I don't think
that Sex Signals is a bad thing.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:10:25 -0400
From: "Juliette Grimmett" 
<>
Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
To: "Amanda Childress" 
<>,
        "Tom Schiff"
        
<>
Cc: 

Message-ID: 
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Dear Amanda, I am reading what you wrote, and the bottom line for me is
that I am not of the belief that men just didn't realize they raped
someone.  I am also talking about coercion here and am very concerned
about the idea that we can just show men how to communicate and that
will end rape - this to me assumes that  they are these poor guys that
don't get it.  I just don't believe that and the research doesn't show
that either.  David Lisak's work on the undetected rapist speaks very
clearly about how intentional and planned these acts are and if we focus
rape/sexual battery prevention programs on thinking we can just get
these guys to get it - I really think we are missing the boat.  The
average person that rapes starts at age 13 - this is a learned behavior
most of the time.  While we may get a *few* random guys, I just don't
believe this is the way to prevent rape.  I really fear it minimizes the
acts and let's these 4-6.4% of men that rape, off the hook.
 
 
 

Are you an NCSU student that is interested in being a Sexual &
Relationship Violence Peer Educator?  Then come join The
Movement.Application can be found online at
http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center/. Please contact Juliette for more
information.. 

 
Juliette Grimmett, MPH
Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
NC State University
Women's Center
3120 Talley Student Center
Campus BOX 7306
Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
Office: (919) 513-3232
24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
Fax: (919) 515-1066
email: 

 ( http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center ;) 
 


>>> Amanda Childress 
>>> <>
>>>  7/21/2008 3:51 PM >>>
We may have to consider the laws by state and consider what we're
looking for 
in a presentation. In Ohio, are sexual assault continuum looks at
sexual 
battery and rape very differently and our campus has more of a sexual
battery 
problem than rape, according to our legal definitions.

Sexual Battery: as 'COERCING another person into any type of
intercourse that 
the person does not want OR having intercourse when the person's
ability to 
consent is impaired by alcohol or other intoxicants.' 

Rape: 'using force or the threat of force to have intercourse OR
sustantially 
impairing another's judgement with a controlled substance to have
intercourse.

On most college campuses you're looking at SA's that involve coercion
and 
alcohol, not always force or the threat of force. The Sex Signals
program may 
not do a very good job if you're trying to address a campus culture of
forced 
RAPE. Because they don't hit on the force/threat of force or drugged
assaults. 
Their program looks more at the coercion and miscommunication that men
and 
women tend to do by assuming one thing and acting on it instead of
checking to 
get consent or verbalizing your wants. Even though it is still the one
who 
ACTS that is at fault, usually being the male. Most likely they need a
better 
disclaimer or introduction to address this in the Sex Signals program,
but 
their program tends to hit the perpretrators that "DON'T think that
what 
they're doing is sexual assault." The average Joes that were/are
socialized to 
think "she's playing hard to get, so I should keep persuing" or the
average 
Janes who think "I don't really like what he's doing, but it's not nice
to 
tell him that." Their program looks at risk reduction as to how each
person, 
male or female can reduce their risk of people getting in these
situations, 
where one person thinks it's consensual and the other feels violated. 

Hope that helps. 

Amanda Childress




Quoting Tom Schiff 
<>:

> My experience of it was that it wasn't overt enough. The students
> with whom 
> I spoke used the word manipulated. And condescension. And again I
> agree with 
> Juliette, they seemed to focus on mis-communication, and thus could
> be 
> perceived has supporting victim blaming.
> 
> Another piece that Juliette brought up which I find interesting is
> about 
> behavior change. Has this program, or other similar programs, done
> any 
> evaluation of impact (not whether folks were entertained)?
> 
> Sorry if I sound cynical. Not my best day today. However, I will add
> that 
> perhaps this program could be very effective if framed well in the
> context 
> of lots of other ongoing work.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chad Sniffen" 
> <>
> To: 
> <>
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:45 PM
> Subject: RE: Looking for speaker team
> 
> 
> > Tom, could you say a little bit more about what you found to be
> > manipulative about it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 
> > 
> >  
> > [mailto:]
> >  On Behalf Of Tom
> Schiff
> > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:42 AM
> > To: 
> > 
> >  
> > Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
> >
> > I saw this production a few years ago, and unless it has changed,
> I
> > would agree with Juliette. I found it to be manipulative. Isn't
> that
> > something we are working against?
> >
> > Perhaps Jackson, etc. have women with whom they work and with whom
> you
> > could con-contract. MVP out of Northeastern typically has female /
> male
> > teams working together.
> >
> > Tom Schiff, Ed.D.
> > Health Education
> > University Health Services
> > 150 Infirmary Way
> > University of Massachusetts
> > Amherst, MA 01003
> > _______________________________________________
> > SAPC mailing list
> > 
> >  
> > https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc ;
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> SAPC mailing list
> 
>  
> https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc ;
> 



Amanda Childress
Assistant Director
Division of Student Affairs
Department of Health Promotion
*********************************
Ohio University
339 Baker University Center
1 Park Place
Athens, OH 45701
740.593.4742

 
www.ohio.edu/healthwell 
_______________________________________________
SAPC mailing list

 
https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:23:57 -0400
From: "Tom Schiff" 
<>
Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
To: "Juliette Grimmett" 
<>,
      "Amanda
        Childress" 
<>
Cc: 

Message-ID: 
<>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

I keep agreeing with Juliette. The numbers don't bear out it being a simple 
matter of mis-communication. There are plenty of men who never cross the line 
of "mis-communication" into rape. That seems clear looking at Koss and follow 
up studies, as well as Lisak. While there are definitely culture factors that 
support rape, it seems to me to be important to look at why the majority of 
men don't rape, even when in ambiguous situations, and a minority do.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Juliette Grimmett 
  To: Amanda Childress ; Tom Schiff 
  Cc: 

 
  Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 4:10 PM
  Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team


  Dear Amanda, I am reading what you wrote, and the bottom line for me is 
that I am not of the belief that men just didn't realize they raped someone.  
I am also talking about coercion here and am very concerned about the idea 
that we can just show men how to communicate and that will end rape - this to 
me assumes that  they are these poor guys that don't get it.  I just don't 
believe that and the research doesn't show that either.  David Lisak's work 
on the undetected rapist speaks very clearly about how intentional and 
planned these acts are and if we focus rape/sexual battery prevention 
programs on thinking we can just get these guys to get it - I really think we 
are missing the boat.  The average person that rapes starts at age 13 - this 
is a learned behavior most of the time.  While we may get a *few* random 
guys, I just don't believe this is the way to prevent rape.  I really fear it 
minimizes the acts and let's these 4-6.4% of men that rape, off the hook.



  Are you an NCSU student that is interested in being a Sexual & Relationship 
Violence Peer Educator?  Then come join The Movement. Application can be 
found online at http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center/. Please contact Juliette ;
for more information.. 

  Juliette Grimmett, MPH
  Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
  NC State University
  Women's Center
  3120 Talley Student Center
  Campus BOX 7306
  Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
  Office: (919) 513-3232
  24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
  Fax: (919) 515-1066
  email: 





  >>> Amanda Childress 
<>
 7/21/2008 3:51 PM >>>
  We may have to consider the laws by state and consider what we're looking 
for 
  in a presentation. In Ohio, are sexual assault continuum looks at sexual 
  battery and rape very differently and our campus has more of a sexual 
battery 
  problem than rape, according to our legal definitions.

  Sexual Battery: as 'COERCING another person into any type of intercourse 
that 
  the person does not want OR having intercourse when the person's ability to 
  consent is impaired by alcohol or other intoxicants.' 

  Rape: 'using force or the threat of force to have intercourse OR 
sustantially 
  impairing another's judgement with a controlled substance to have 
intercourse.

  On most college campuses you're looking at SA's that involve coercion and 
  alcohol, not always force or the threat of force. The Sex Signals program 
may 
  not do a very good job if you're trying to address a campus culture of 
forced 
  RAPE. Because they don't hit on the force/threat of force or drugged 
assaults. 
  Their program looks more at the coercion and miscommunication that men and 
  women tend to do by assuming one thing and acting on it instead of checking 
to 
  get consent or verbalizing your wants. Even though it is still the one who 
  ACTS that is at fault, usually being the male. Most likely they need a 
better 
  disclaimer or introduction to address this in the Sex Signals program, but 
  their program tends to hit the perpretrators that "DON'T think that what 
  they're doing is sexual assault." The average Joes that were/are socialized 
to 
  think "she's playing hard to get, so I should keep persuing" or the average 
  Janes who think "I don't really like what he's doing, but it's not nice to 
  tell him that." Their program looks at risk reduction as to how each 
person, 
  male or female can reduce their risk of people getting in these situations, 
  where one person thinks it's consensual and the other feels violated. 

  Hope that helps. 

  Amanda Childress




  Quoting Tom Schiff 
<>:

  > My experience of it was that it wasn't overt enough. The students
  > with whom 
  > I spoke used the word manipulated. And condescension. And again I
  > agree with 
  > Juliette, they seemed to focus on mis-communication, and thus could
  > be 
  > perceived has supporting victim blaming.
  > 
  > Another piece that Juliette brought up which I find interesting is
  > about 
  > behavior change. Has this program, or other similar programs, done
  > any 
  > evaluation of impact (not whether folks were entertained)?
  > 
  > Sorry if I sound cynical. Not my best day today. However, I will add
  > that 
  > perhaps this program could be very effective if framed well in the
  > context 
  > of lots of other ongoing work.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: "Chad Sniffen" 
<>
  > To: 
<>
  > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:45 PM
  > Subject: RE: Looking for speaker team
  > 
  > 
  > > Tom, could you say a little bit more about what you found to be
  > > manipulative about it?
  > >
  > > Thanks,
  > > Chad
  > >
  > > -----Original Message-----
  > > From: 

  > > 
[mailto:]
 On Behalf Of Tom
  > Schiff
  > > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:42 AM
  > > To: 

  > > Subject: Re: Looking for speaker team
  > >
  > > I saw this production a few years ago, and unless it has changed,
  > I
  > > would agree with Juliette. I found it to be manipulative. Isn't
  > that
  > > something we are working against?
  > >
  > > Perhaps Jackson, etc. have women with whom they work and with whom
  > you
  > > could con-contract. MVP out of Northeastern typically has female /
  > male
  > > teams working together.
  > >
  > > Tom Schiff, Ed.D.
  > > Health Education
  > > University Health Services
  > > 150 Infirmary Way
  > > University of Massachusetts
  > > Amherst, MA 01003
  > > _______________________________________________
  > > SAPC mailing list
  > > 

  > > https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
  > > 
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > SAPC mailing list
  > 

  > https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
  > 



  Amanda Childress
  Assistant Director
  Division of Student Affairs
  Department of Health Promotion
  *********************************
  Ohio University
  339 Baker University Center
  1 Park Place
  Athens, OH 45701
  740.593.4742
  

  www.ohio.edu/healthwell
  _______________________________________________
  SAPC mailing list
  

  https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
SAPC mailing list

https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc


End of SAPC Digest, Vol 1023, Issue 3
*************************************