Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.

["Patrick Lincoln" <>]

Juliette, and others,

I think your thoughts are timely and essential to consider.  I haven't kept 
up with postings too well so I'll try to keep my comments brief as to not 
repeat too much of what may have already been written.

*Ideally, our work should not reinforce the rigid gender binary we now have 
to contend with.  Men's groups should include the involvement of women, and 
transfolks, and others that have investment in ending men's violence.  Our 
work is about rebuilding trust and allowing us to be whole invidividuals 
beyond oppressive expectations.  However, I wouldn't want to confuse this 
with saying that no all-male spaces are acceptable.  I've been in too many 
mixed-gender groups talking about sexism and the prevention of sexual 
violence where women are looked to as the sole moral arbiters.  And this work 
is a process, if we want to reach men that haven't done any self-work around 
this issue at all, we may have to wait a while before getting in to some 
nitty-gritty issues, like homophobia for example.  If we wait to build some 
trust, a lot more is gonna be uncovered and challenged when we do get to 
addressing homophobia and its connection to sexism and men's violence.  But 
yeah, Juliette mentions guys that just want to DO...and I totally concur that 
I think part of our work with men is to provide opportunities to partner with 
others that have more historically taken action around this issue, but also 
our work is say "wait a minute, reading and reflecting and talking IS doing."

*Which is connected to the fact that this work has to be FOR men as much as 
it is to benefit others.  My involvement in this work started with a desire 
to repair broken relationships with my father, brothers, friends, and myself 
that have all been burnt by the pain men experience going through our 
socialization.  Yeah, this pain is taken out against those closest to us 
oftentimes, but identifying with the pain we still experience as men is so 
damn critical.  My Dad spent almost 2 years in Vietnam during the war and was 
married to my Mom for 15 years before she knew about that part of his life, 
her only hints would have been the nightmares and drinking.  Not to take 
accountability off my father for his often abusive behavior...but damn, he 
surely could have benefited from a culture that doesn't breed boys as 
soldiers.  As long as our work is solely for women, or for children, or for 
queer communities (if we are men, adults, and straight), it will at best be 
patronizing, and at worst hasty, ineffective, short-lived, and dare I say - 
for the money.  

*I haven't kept to my promise of brevity, so I'm sorry about that and I'll 
wrap it up.  Some organizers that have been mentors of mine from a distance, 
and up close here in in D.C., are the folks of INCITE! Women of Color Against 
Violence.  Their most recent anthology, "The Revolution Will Not Be Funded: 
Beyond the Non-Profit Industrial Complex", like Juliette's concerns, is so 
absolutely essential.  One article that I can recommend (and have found 
available online) is Paul Kivel's Social Service or Social Change?  Check it 
out at www.paulkivel.com/uploads/socialchange.pdf  I think for all of us, 
taking a long hard look at how we get our money, where it comes from, how it 
affects accountability, the possibility of a more sweeping political 
analysis, etc. is desperately needed.  And this is perhaps even more so for 
men, 'cause as far as my historical knowledge of this work is concerned, I 
think men in this movement really took off for the first time when funds 
became available.  I know my position here at MCSR, and the work its brought 
me to, was definitely heavily influenced by my need for a paycheck.

Alright, thanks for gettin' me thinkin',

Patrick


Patrick Lincoln
Director of Consulting and Training 
Men Can Stop Rape
(202) 265-6530 phone 
(202) 265-4362 fax 

Check out our new blog!
www.mencanstoprape.blogspot.com

The unhappiness of men in relationships, the grief men feel about the failure 
of love, often goes unnoticed in our society precisely because the 
patriarchal culture does not care if men are unhappy.

-bell hooks, from The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity and Love 
(www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-0743456084-2)













Sorry for any cross-postings...

I was wondering if others were at all having these feelings...  

I truly believe that I personally could not be more of an advocate for
men joining the movement to end sexual violence.  I believe in men's
groups, in male prevention coordinators, male peer eds, male speakers,
etc.

However, I have also lately started feeling concerned.  I am concerned
that while many men are part of this movement, some are not including
women in their work.  In fact, I have heard about men being afraid to
include women in their work.  Further, I have had friends that have
attended men's groups meetings and have told me about what was
discussed, and both of us were very concerned that they were missing
significant issues because of their lack of being informed regularly,
by
women.  Same is true of national male speakers.  While I am so glad
that
they are doing this work, are there women regularly informing them?  

Lately I am feeling that all of the years worth of women doing
incredible and courageous work are being seen as secondary to what men
are doing when you look at key note speakers at conferences, and who
the
big names are for campuses to hire as their annual speakers.  Where
are
the combined gender programs that focus on more than the heterosexist
ideas of men and women being different and that rape is really just an
accident or miscommunication?

While I believe that men need a safe space to talk about these issues,
as do women, I am concerned that we are missing the piece of all
working
together.  We all need each other.  I believe that the more we keep
separating the genders to do their own work, we will continue to
reinforce this divide (also often heterosexist), rather than working
on
this as a human issue.  

I am also concerned about staff positions in agencies.  I have noticed
that in agencies where there may only be one sexual violence position,
i.e. campuses, when they are vacating, rather than adding an
additional
position for a men's program coordinator, some agencies are putting
men
in those positions and losing the female all together.  Further, these
men aren't even necessarily qualified for the positions, but folks are
just so happy to have a man interested in doing the work, that they
are
sacrificing positions.

Finally, I have also noticed a shift among women in sexual violence
coordinator/director positions in that they are lately more concerned
with making it easy on men, and diluting messages (i.e. number of men
that would admit to raping a woman if not being caught, etc.) than
talking about the reality and working on changing the culture to end
it
together.  It's as if lately, so much is being catered to making this
easier for men.  Of course I understand that in order to engage men in
this work, we need to add new approaches to our work.  I am all about
tailoring messages, etc.  But I feel that this new wave is not about
adding, but instead removing.

I am not at all suggesting that all men's groups, speakers, and
agencies are engaging in these practices.  However I feel I have heard
too many stories at this point to make me think this is just random
occurrences.  I do not feel that there is enough stress on the
importance of women and men working together, and men having to be
informed regularly by women - particularly as men are also survivors,
and women can also perpetrate these acts.

Just some initial thoughts this morning.  What do others think?  Sorry
for my long rant here.

Juliette Grimmett
Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
NC State University
Women's Center
3120 Talley Student Center
Campus BOX 7306
Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
Office: (919) 513-3232
24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
Fax: (919) 515-1066
email: 

website: http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center
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