Subject: Discussion List for campus-based and allied personnel working to end gender-based violence on campus.
List archive
- From: Monica Collins <>
- To: "Seymour, Forrest" <>,
- Subject: Re: Concered
- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
- List-archive: <https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/private/sapc>
- List-id: "Discussion List for sexual assault educators and counselors on campus." <sapc.list.mail.virginia.edu>
Thank you for the email, Forrest. I believe that there are lots of men out
there who are doing great work around gender privilege who might have some
great feedback for your question. I would invite you to seek them out and ask
them your question. Having said that, in an attempt to meet you halfway, ill
share my initial thoughts off the top of my head…….
1. Please, for the love of love, resist the temptation to be an “expert” at
sexual violence prevention. Use yourself as a tool to model and encourage
positive social change… but don’t claim (or give off the impression) that you
are an “expert”. While some of us might get paid for our jobs, ending sexual
violence is not “work”…it’s about people’s lived realities…and therefore
should not be talked about as though we are debating various capitalist
strategies or investment opportunities.
2. Know that your (our) whiteness, your maleness and your hetero-ness (if is
that even a word) show up in ALL that you do. Every single email,
conversation and workshop will contain these identities… so rather than
ignoring them, name them! This will allow others to do the same- which in
turn makes it easier for folks to share the thoughts that accompany their
(our) eye-rolling.
3. Read andrea dworkin’s 24-Hour Truce at least once a month.
4. Have conversations about your whiteness, your maleness and your
hetero-ness with other folks on this listserv who share those identities. I
can’t help but ask if you sent emails to men on this listserv asking them,
“what the hell can we do to make this listserv a safer space?”. I don’t
believe for a second that the dominant identity folks (white straight males)
have NEVER recognized privilege on this listserv…. So why don’t we hear more
dominant identity folks calling out behaviors that are clearly rooted in
privilege??
5. When marginalized folks call you out on privilege, don’t run away in
silence. (isn’t it fascinating how quiet the men have suddenly gotten on this
listserv over the past week??). Acknowledge the fact that you stepped in
it…and try your best to not step in that particular pile-of-privilege again.
Surely we all step in various piles-of-privilege on a daily basis… so when
someone tells you that you messed up, believe them, validate them, make a
mental note of it and try your best to not do it again.
That’s all I have to share….and again, I don’t speak for all the marginalized
folks on this listserv so please know that this list is only what I need.
Others might (and most likely do) need other things. Ill close with a quote
from andrea dworkin’s 24-Hour Truce…. “the problem is that you think it’s out
there: and it’s not out there. It is in you”.
In solidarity…
M .
Monica Collins
Instructor & Coordinator
Women's Programs and Ethnic Studies
Colorado State University
112 Student Services
970-491-6384
www.wps.colostate.edu/
www.3cents.org
"The truth is on the side of the oppressed" -MX
________________________________
From: "Seymour, Forrest"
<>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:51:37 AM
Subject: RE: Concered
Dear Monica, Ellie, Wanda, Claire & Aline -
As a white straight male ally, sexual violence prevention professional, and
member of this list, I welcome your insights, perspective, frustration,
feedback and voices. What can I (and we more privileged list members) do to
make this list feel safer and more welcoming for the words that accompany
your eye-rolling?
-Forrest
----------------------------------------
Forrest Seymour, LICSW
Counselor, KSC Counseling Center
Coordinator, Sexual Violence Prevention & Education Program
Co-Advisor, Mentors in Violence Prevention
Keene State College
229 Main Street
Keene, NH 03435
603-358-2047
603-358-2985 (fax)
http://www.keene.edu/counseling
"Creating a World of Possibilities."
------------------------------------------
* Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed for messages sent through email.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Elena Marie DiLapi, LSW, QCSW"
<>
Subject: Re: concerned.
To: Monica Collins
<>,
""
<>
Message-ID:
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dear Monica,
Thank you!? Contrary to your opening?note that you did not know what to say,
I believe you did and you do!??Your voice?is an important one and I?too am
concerned.
In sisterhood,
Ellie?
?
Elena Marie DiLapi, LSW, QCSW
?
?
Please Help Support Taller Puertorriquenno
United Way Donor Choice # 185
United Way of Southeastern PA/SECA # 4101-0121
Your support is Appreciated!
________________________________
From: Monica Collins
<>
To: "Foubert, John"
<>;
""
<>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 12:26:16 PM
Subject: concerned.
hello all...
?
i have been a member of this listserv for almost?2 years?but this is the
first time that i have felt compelled to respond publicly?on an issue.?its
not that i haven?t been moved, or?frustrated, or inspired, or irritated by
previous topics...i certainly have. i have just never felt?the need to
respond to the entire group before.
?
the?interesting thing about?this response today is that im not entirely sure
what i want to say.? i too am outraged at the way the university of the
pacific case has been handled and the way that the victim has been
treated.?i?have little interest in?hearing the?intricate details of the
case?because?in my?opinion we could easily replace the name/locations of this
case with countless other?universities in this country. The thing that I was
most outraged about when the story first broke was?how NOT surprised i?was
to?hear the response that came from the university of the pacific. *sigh*
?
what i?want to talk about today is what i perceive to be identity based
privilege that?has taken place on this listserv.?i can?t count the number of
times i have read a post from?a person with dominant identities (white,
straight, male) and?felt so angry at their refusal to name?or recognize?how
their approach is directly tied to their privilege.?typically, when a?post
that contains male privilege goes out on the listserv a small number of us
(who mostly identify as women) start our own?chain of emails back-and-forth
discussing how?angry the post makes us feel. what does it say about?a
movement if marginalized?members?(people of color, queer folks, women, etc)
need to take time and energy to process?our marginalization within our own
movement???
?
rather than only talking in?the abstract, i will share a couple of
examples... not long ago, a female member of another similarly themed
listserv sent out a list of "tips" that are tied to sexual violence. things
like, "When you tell me that I shouldn't drink too much alcohol because that
increases my risk of being sexually assaulted, I hear that I was responsible
for being raped because I was drunk.?. not long after her post, a male member
of the listserv ?took the liberty? of putting her words into a poem form
because he felt they would be more effective that way. while im sure his
intention was good?the impact was that it sent a message that women need men
to make our work better.
?
another example comes from this listserv. not long ago a male member of this
group sent out a message saying that he is now available to do a bystander
intervention program for women.?i sent an email directly to him sharing the
fact that the gender based dynamics (a man telling women how to intervene in
sexual assault) made me feel uncomfortable and asked if he could provide more
context. hHe responded with more ?expert? rhetoric and never once mentioned
the gendered implication of how his sessions could be perceived.
?
i?am choosing to leave names out of this email because?i don?t think that
naming people is nearly as important as naming behaviors.?i also don?t claim
to speak for all women (or other marginalized members of this anti-violence
movement or listerv). this post is simply my attempt to name the fact that
this university of the pacific incident, and in particular some of the
responses offered by men on this listserv, has me feeling the same discomfort
around gender privilege that I have felt numerous times over the last 2
years.
?
i?would like to close with a message from me to men on this listserv? please
think twice about the implications of showing up as ?the expert?. please
think twice about the gender dynamics that allow you to fire off a curt
response to a woman (regardless of whether or not your points are valid or
correct). please keep in mind that many of us who you attempt to ?school? on
the ?facts? of sexual assault came to this work as a result of our own
victimization?we don?t need you to tell us the ?facts?. we need you to be
allies NOT experts. please know that many of the self proclaimed allies in
this movement are not trusted by the women fighting alongside you. please
know that we warn each other about attending your sessions and
workshops....that we recognize and name the ways in which your male privilege
shows up in the work you do regardless of whether or not you choose to
recognize it in yourselves. please keep in mind the history of
gender privilege that allows you to show up the way you do in the
anti-violence movement. please work to pay attention to?and name? the way you
respond to women in this movement. saying things like ?not surprisingly, she
misses the point? is not only arrogant but also rooted in male privilege.
trust me, there are PLENTY of times that women in this movement have read
emails written by men, sat in prevention workshops facilitated by men, had
one-on-one conversations with men?and left thinking, ?not surprisingly, he
misses the point?.
?
again, I am not attempting to defend anyone (especially not the university of
the pacific) and im not trying to convict anyone (especially male allies who
actively work on their male privilege). i am simply sharing my thoughts as a
queer, white woman who would like to remain a member of this listserv but
often considers dropping off. i might be alone in my feelings about this
listserv but i dont believe that we?can have a movement to end violence if we
don?t pay attention to the identity based dynamics (race, gender, sexual
orientation, ability, class, etc) that occur within our own listerv.
?
in solidarity?monica
?
Monica Collins
Instructor & Coordinator
Women's Programs and Ethnic Studies
Colorado State University
112 Student Services
970-491-6384
www.wps.colostate.edu/
www.3cents.org
?
"The truth is on the side of the oppressed" -MX
_______________________________________________
SAPC mailing list
https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:27:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Barone
<>
Subject: RE: Concered (Seymour, Forrest)
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Hello All,
I have been thinking most of the day about your post monica, and your
response Forrest. While I struggle with another person oozing privilege
posting on this list, thereby detracting from the important social justice
work many folks do on a daily basis, I have made the calculated decision to
respond. I will commit to being as succinct as possible.
Forrest, I would love to connect with 1-1 off list.
I also believe the request of some women (monica, Ellie, Wanda, Claire &
Aline) on this list to teach us what we can do to make this list feel safer
is precisely the kind of un-problemtaized privilege monica speaks of in two
major ways:
1) This is not our list, or our movement to, “make safer and more
welcoming.” With likely painstaking time and energy, monica demonstrated
what do to. It does not involve just acknowledging privilege, but
incorporating that knowledge in our practice. There is no blue-print. But
the concept of “empowering” or “opening up” a space to/for someone else, when
it was never our space to begin with, reflects the sense of entitlement I
have been socialized to have due to messages of supremacy I have
received based on my identities. Others may feel similarly, consciously or
not.
2) We need to figure out what to do on our own. My experience tells me that
people without as much privilege as myself will hold me accountable when my
supremacy surfaces, but I need to do a lot of the work on my own. I must do
this with my brothers, my white people, my relatively straight people, and my
middle-class family primarily. This should not be done in a vacuum, and
there are appropriate times to ask for accountability, I am just convinced
this list (of mostly strangers) is not the place to do that. Our
communities, agencies, universities and families (of choice and origin) are
likely the most important places to be in relationship with people whose
identities are similar and different from our own.
I will close with an acknowledgement that my young path toward allyship is
littered with pitfalls. One of the largest is my tendency to want to be “the
best [white person/man/ally etc] in the room.” I fear my response may be
rooted in that insecurity. That is my conflict to sit in and work on, but I
will not allow that fear, this time, to self-silence.
Respectfully,
ryan
Ryan P Barone
North Campus Residence Hall Director
University of Connecticut
82 North Eagleville Rd
Storrs, Connecticut 06269-3152
Phone: 860-486-5550
--- On Wed, 6/24/09,
<>
wrote:
From:
<>
Subject: SAPC Digest, Vol 1221, Issue 1
To:
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 12:03 PM
Send SAPC mailing list submissions to
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of SAPC digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. RE: Concered (Seymour, Forrest)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:51:37 -0400
From: "Seymour, Forrest"
<>
Subject: RE: Concered
To:
<>
Message-ID:
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Monica, Ellie, Wanda, Claire & Aline -
As a white straight male ally, sexual violence prevention professional, and
member of this list, I welcome your insights, perspective, frustration,
feedback and voices. What can I (and we more privileged list members) do to
make this list feel safer and more welcoming for the words that accompany
your eye-rolling?
-Forrest
----------------------------------------
Forrest Seymour, LICSW
Counselor, KSC Counseling Center
Coordinator, Sexual Violence Prevention & Education Program
Co-Advisor, Mentors in Violence Prevention
Keene State College
229 Main Street
Keene, NH?? 03435
603-358-2047
603-358-2985 (fax)
http://www.keene.edu/counseling
"Creating?a World of Possibilities."
------------------------------------------
* Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed for messages sent through email.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:10:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Elena Marie DiLapi, LSW, QCSW"
<>
Subject: Re: concerned.
To: Monica Collins
<>,
""
<>
Message-ID:
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Dear Monica,
Thank you!? Contrary to your opening?note that you did not know what to say,
I believe you did and you do!??Your voice?is an important one and I?too am
concerned.
In sisterhood,
Ellie?
?
Elena Marie DiLapi, LSW, QCSW
?
?
Please Help Support Taller Puertorriquenno
United Way Donor Choice # 185
United Way of Southeastern PA/SECA # 4101-0121
Your support is Appreciated!
________________________________
From: Monica Collins
<>
To: "Foubert, John"
<>;
""
<>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 12:26:16 PM
Subject: concerned.
hello all...
?
i have been a member of this listserv for almost?2 years?but this is the
first time that i have felt compelled to respond publicly?on an issue.?its
not that i haven?t been moved, or?frustrated, or inspired, or irritated by
previous topics...i certainly have. i have just never felt?the need to
respond to the entire group before.
?
the?interesting thing about?this response today is that im not entirely sure
what i want to say.? i too am outraged at the way the university of the
pacific case has been handled and the way that the victim has been
treated.?i?have little interest in?hearing the?intricate details of the
case?because?in my?opinion we could easily replace the name/locations of this
case with countless other?universities in this country. The thing that I was
most outraged about when the story first broke was?how NOT surprised i?was
to?hear the response that came from the university of the pacific. *sigh*
?
what i?want to talk about today is what i perceive to be identity based
privilege that?has taken place on this listserv.?i can?t count the number of
times i have read a post from?a person with dominant identities (white,
straight, male) and?felt so angry at their refusal to name?or recognize?how
their approach is directly tied to their privilege.?typically, when a?post
that contains male privilege goes out on the listserv a small number of us
(who mostly identify as women) start our own?chain of emails back-and-forth
discussing how?angry the post makes us feel. what does it say about?a
movement if marginalized?members?(people of color, queer folks, women, etc)
need to take time and energy to process?our marginalization within our own
movement???
?
rather than only talking in?the abstract, i will share a couple of
examples... not long ago, a female member of another similarly themed
listserv sent out a list of "tips" that are tied to sexual violence. things
like, "When you tell me that I shouldn't drink too much alcohol because that
increases my risk of being sexually assaulted, I hear that I was responsible
for being raped because I was drunk.?. not long after her post, a male member
of the listserv ?took the liberty? of putting her words into a poem form
because he felt they would be more effective that way. while im sure his
intention was good?the impact was that it sent a message that women need men
to make our work better.
?
another example comes from this listserv. not long ago a male member of this
group sent out a message saying that he is now available to do a bystander
intervention program for women.?i sent an email directly to him sharing the
fact that the gender based dynamics (a man telling women how to intervene in
sexual assault) made me feel uncomfortable and asked if he could provide more
context. hHe responded with more ?expert? rhetoric and never once mentioned
the gendered implication of how his sessions could be perceived.
?
i?am choosing to leave names out of this email because?i don?t think that
naming people is nearly as important as naming behaviors.?i also don?t claim
to speak for all women (or other marginalized members of this anti-violence
movement or listerv). this post is simply my attempt to name the fact that
this university of the pacific incident, and in particular some of the
responses offered by men on this listserv, has me feeling the same discomfort
around gender privilege that I have felt numerous times over the last 2
years.
?
i?would like to close with a message from me to men on this listserv? please
think twice about the implications of showing up as ?the expert?. please
think twice about the gender dynamics that allow you to fire off a curt
response to a woman (regardless of whether or not your points are valid or
correct). please keep in mind that many of us who you attempt to ?school? on
the ?facts? of sexual assault came to this work as a result of our own
victimization?we don?t need you to tell us the ?facts?. we need you to be
allies NOT experts. please know that many of the self proclaimed allies in
this movement are not trusted by the women fighting alongside you. please
know that we warn each other about attending your sessions and
workshops....that we recognize and name the ways in which your male privilege
shows up in the work you do regardless of whether or not you choose to
recognize it in yourselves. please keep in mind the history of
gender privilege that allows you to show up the way you do in the
anti-violence movement. please work to pay attention to?and name? the way you
respond to women in this movement. saying things like ?not surprisingly, she
misses the point? is not only arrogant but also rooted in male privilege.
trust me, there are PLENTY of times that women in this movement have read
emails written by men, sat in prevention workshops facilitated by men, had
one-on-one conversations with men?and left thinking, ?not surprisingly, he
misses the point?.
?
again, I am not attempting to defend anyone (especially not the university of
the pacific) and im not trying to convict anyone (especially male allies who
actively work on their male privilege). i am simply sharing my thoughts as a
queer, white woman who would like to remain a member of this listserv but
often considers dropping off. i might be alone in my feelings about this
listserv but i dont believe that we?can have a movement to end violence if we
don?t pay attention to the identity based dynamics (race, gender, sexual
orientation, ability, class, etc) that occur within our own listerv.
?
in solidarity?monica
?
Monica Collins
Instructor & Coordinator
Women's Programs and Ethnic Studies
Colorado State University
112 Student Services
970-491-6384
www.wps.colostate.edu/
www.3cents.org
?
"The truth is on the side of the oppressed" -MX
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
SAPC mailing list
https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sapc
End of SAPC Digest, Vol 1221, Issue 1
*************************************
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Subject: Re: Bystander intervention campaign
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as part of the workshops we do that always including bystander
intervention scenarios, we emphasize the need for women to stand up with
each other - for example, if there is a scummy guy at a party grabbing
all the women's butts - we encourage the women at the party to get
together and stand up to him, rather than the classic go get a guy to
take care of him stuff. We also do a scenario in which a female student
sees another woman at a bar (or even in a study lounge in a Residence
hall) speaking to a guy she knows is a perpetrator. The idea is for all
women to start standing up for each other - warning each other who to
get away from and then to confront the men in a group - an empowering
experience. Many of my students have told me anecdotally about their
recent interventions like this and they were so excited about their
courage to both try and help the women, and then also confront the man
about his behavior and that they know what he is up to.
I STRONGLY believe in this approach. I am so tired of the "go get a
guy to take care of it BS" - woman need to be able to believe in each
other and trust each other and their power to make change!
I know this is a month after you asked the question, but i was on
maternity leave. i hope some of this is helpful - i'd love to hear what
others are doing like this.
peace,
juliette
Are you an NCSU student interested in being a Sexual & Relationship
Violence Peer Educator? Join The Movement.Application can be found
online at www.ncsu.edu/themovement
Juliette Grimmett, MPH
Rape Prevention Education Coordinator
NC State University
Women's Center
3120 Talley Student Center
Campus BOX 7306
Raleigh, NC 27695-7306
Office: (919) 513-3232
24 Hour Sexual Violence Hotline: (919)618-RAPE (7273)
Fax: (919) 515-1066
email:
( http://www.ncsu.edu/womens_center ;)
PConsider the environment before printing this email or the attachment.
>>> "Michelle N. Issadore"
>>> <>
>>> 5/13/2009 12:12 PM >>>
Hello,
We are working on a bystander intervention campaign for next year,
including Brett Sokolow's "What if the Plane Blew Up" and Men Can Stop
Rape's bystander poster series. Is anyone finding anything out there on
women intervening? Any ideas would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Michelle
--
Michelle N. Issadore
Assistant Director
Lehigh University Women’s Center
University Center, Room C201A
29 Trembley Drive
Bethlehem, PA 18015
(610) 758-5808
(610) 758-6960 fax
http://www.lehigh.edu/~inwnc
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- Re: Concered, Monica Collins, 06/24/2009
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